0:00
Have you ever had a dream of just leaving your entire life behind?
Maybe go to the jungle or live at a retreat centre and just stay there until you feel you've done this deep inner work that you feel called to do and you've found your true purpose and calling in life.
Today's guest is Steve and he's a man who has done exactly this.
0:19
After decades of climbing the corporate ladder, earning a multi 6 figure income and doing all the things in life that most people spend their lives chasing, something inside of him just knew there had to be more.
So he made a decision that most people would never even dare to make.
0:38
He left America, he left a career and he left the identity that he spent decades building.
And he moved to Spain to live at an ayahuasca retreat centre and train with a shaman and me.
And through ayahuasca ceremonies and a relentless commitment to do dinner work, Steve began to peel back all the layers that had shaped his life.
1:00
And rather than turning away from them, he chose to meet them all.
Not only to free himself, but because he recognized the very profound truth.
The deeper we are willing to go into our own healing, the greater is also our capacity to hold space for others in this work with presence, humility, and integrity.
1:23
In this conversation, Steve shares a remarkably simple four step framework for surrendering to the intelligence of plant medicine.
It's practical, it is grounded, and it's one of the clearest explanation I've heard for how to truly receive the full potential of an ayahuasca ceremony.
1:39
You can download this workbook and framework for free using the link in the show notes or in the episode description below.
Let's dive in.
2:20
Very honored to have you here.
I've been witnessing your process for the last month and also in our Sacred integration facilitator training.
You carry a lot of courage and a lot of gifts with you on your life path, and I'm wondering if you could share a little bit about how you ended up in an ayahuasca retreat in Spain.
2:41
After 37 plus years in IT raising a family, my kids are now in their mid 20s.
They're on their own, sadly, divorced some years ago, and I found that to the job that's working just wasn't fulfilling anymore.
2:59
It didn't have heart any longer and it felt soulless.
So after some time doing spiritual work and being in a cohort for spiritual integration and understanding what it takes to bring someone from a difficult time in their lives to understanding where the joy and love come from, they felt like the right path to go ahead and continue this work.
3:24
Go deep myself so I can do even better job of being there for others.
There's a saying that you can't guide others deeper than you've gone yourself.
What does that mean to you it?
Kind of goes associated with the wounded healer concept.
Some of the best healers out there have gone through a major traumas in their own lives and they've done the work to address those traumas, woundings and what not, to learn what it takes and to really feel it.
3:54
Your personal journey is the gift, so to speak, towards your own personal healing.
And then once you're the personal healing, you can share that journey with others and bring them along because you've been there, done that.
And where are you on that journey right now?
4:12
I would say vast majority of my issues that were based on woundings when I was younger are addressed.
There are a couple more of them continue to work on abandonment and self love, but I would say I've made great strides in those and by the end of this time at this retreat center, I fully expect I will have addressed those fully and be able to share about those.
4:37
So I would say that coupled with the concept out deeper going here in the retreat center, I will be in a very good space to just be full of loving kindness and caring.
How does abandonment, wounding, or lack of self love show up in your life right now?
4:57
It's more of a feeling and the concept of abandonment or self love.
They're very much tied together.
And so when I work with others, for instance, I can give tons and tons of love.
5:15
That's who I am.
But when I start going inwards and it's like there's some sort of little block out there that says, yeah, not so fast.
And it's why, Why can't I do that?
And I've not figured out the switch just yet, but I'm so incredibly close.
Previous work done with therapy brought me to the point where it was parts work.
5:35
And I found I had this little soldier inside me, Romanesque, and it was blocking me from getting hurt by others.
I worked through that and I was able to welcome love into my life.
And I found out there was also, like most walls, it's a blocks you both ways.
5:53
I wasn't able to give myself as much love.
And so I've worked through that to get the soldier to say, OK, back off a little bit.
But he still comes in every once in a while.
He goes, what, what, what am I doing?
He and I have to have a long conversation some point in the near future and say, OK, I really need you to totally back off.
6:11
I appreciate you were there.
This home protect my whole life, but I'm good now.
I'm an adult.
I can take care of it.
Any grief that comes, I'm OK.
What do you think is the positive intent of this soldier?
It was always protection growing up was not any time and I was for a giver then receiver.
6:33
And so in that situation, you're not receiving as much as you need and certainly not in the ways you need it.
And so you end up putting up defenses and getting hurt.
And so the soldier was there to protect me from getting too hurt.
And can you tell a little bit about how your upbringing, what was your homework and medicine you had to work through to claim your path as a healer in this lifetime?
6:58
I was born into a family that there was a strong abuse, verbal, physical, emotional.
Even while in the womb, there was abuse that was happening with my mother.
My father was extremely abusive and there were points where I'd go to school, for instance, as early as kindergarten, they'd ask where these wounds came from and I didn't want to tell my dad, but obviously they knew where it was coming from.
7:28
I've had a strong stutter because of that.
I was always afraid at home.
And the abuse was not just spanking became belts became the belt buckle, this became a knife.
It became it just escalated.
7:43
And the reason it escalated was 'cause I actually pushed back.
I didn't just give in to him.
My brother gave in.
And it's not to say he got off easy, but at least my father didn't escalate as much with my father as it did with me.
I don't know why, but from age 2 I was very defiant and that was just, you're not going to take this out of me.
8:06
Is that the soldier in you it?
Might be it, might be.
What do you feel you're carrying as gifts now in your life from your childhood?
Gifts from my childhood.
You learn to be self dependent, able to do just about anything because you had to.
8:24
The ability to empathize, which actually took me into my 20s to learn what that was in comparison to understanding how someone feels.
The ability to walk into a situation and not fear because the amount of crap I went through when I was younger, it's like, you know what?
8:47
Already been through hell, so you don't have to fear that.
Exactly.
So walking into any room and beyond to what?
No, you're going to walk out of that room.
It might be damaged a little bit, you might feel it, but you're going to walk out.
Now let's move back to how someone ends up at an ayahuasca retreat in Spain on a farm with goats and chickens and a parrot.
9:12
What made you take that decision to leave everything behind in the States, to come here for four months to work on yourself?
It felt right.
I have been doing spiritual work.
I was laid off 2 June's ago and at that time I was like, you know what, I'm just going to go into the woods for the summer wherever my van takes me and sleep in the van pulled beside a river and just walk the river.
9:43
And the amount of time in that summer I spent alone literally at 2 sticks in my hand, walking up a river or a stream or a brook or riding a bike through the woods or going for a hike.
I'll call it a even more of a spiritual awakening than I had before because I gave up corporate life, at least for the summer, saying I'm so done with this.
10:10
And I went inward and started talking to trees more than I used to, commuting with fish in the river and talking to the birds and really starting to, I would say go back to my childhood, free all the mess of corporate world and matrix, right?
10:28
Go into the woods every chance I could because there I had freedom.
There I was peaceful, there I communed with nature as only a child could.
So I let my child back out.
And then that felt like the right thing to do from a perspective of saying I'm going to change what I do for a living.
10:49
To share this with others. 10 years ago when I was in the West Coast, not only was in a spiritual town with spiritual people around me and there was a group that I joined that enabled me to understand far better than I already did what it takes to go inward.
11:07
And that group was called Mankind Project.
And they use internal family systems and if you are the modalities to work with men through these things.
And I became very competent at it and I wanted to go deeper and like why can't I?
11:26
So took a course for integration and I am helping others through their traumas to become more spiritual.
What do you see has been the most impactful for men?
Coming together in a circle, integrating and transforming together.
11:44
First off, men of most of these ages these days don't go transition from boy to men.
And so they're still children on the inside.
And at the same time, they're being told to be men, strong men, and to be the leader of the family, go kill the woolly mammoth and come back.
12:05
And most men in this day and age don't understand who they're supposed to be as men, at least not in the Western cultures.
And the biggest piece in that one is, all right, So they have to relearn it's OK to be vulnerable.
12:21
It's OK to be themselves and not just the breadwinner, to be that man in the house.
It's not just the one who repairs everything and stands up strong, but also the man that sits down and drinks tea with his daughters at their level.
12:38
So it's getting them to understand, to go into themselves and see where their joy comes from.
That usually involves inner child work where you go back and actually visit your inner child.
It's like, oh, I used to do that.
And it's amazing when a man goes does that and comes back as I love this and next thing they're doing it again and they start choking more and they start being more interactive and on a very joyous level.
13:08
And then from a love perspective, a lot of men lose themselves in their lives and in their marriages and they become the furniture.
So when they start saying, I really don't know what I'm going to do with my this divorce, my horizon.
13:25
Do you love your wife?
Does she love you?
It used to be this way.
Why don't you actually, next time you're walking by her, put your hand on her shoulder for a gentle, just for a moment when she's in the kitchen, just give her a small kiss, whatever she's willing to accept at that time.
13:41
And you're going to find yourself building up another relationship.
But this time is going to be as an adult because now you're in your 30s, forties, 50s, and you've been married for X many years and you have children.
It's a very different dynamic now.
13:57
Like when you're first together and everything was hunky Dory honeymoon.
So it's really beautiful to see these men come out again as human beings who want to engage in life.
And that is one of the things that really watching that happen many times over.
14:14
It's so heartwarming.
It's when you just want to keep giving more.
What has inspired you the most about these men the last 10 years?
Is just watch these men blossom and in circle, everything's kept secret.
So you can walk in a circle and you can be anybody.
14:32
You can truly be yourself.
So some men are like, I just need a big hug or I need to do a Primal Scream because I'm so frustrated.
And yeah, so do it.
And they find out they're allowed to beat them.
14:48
And when they bring up their issues, let's let's talk through it.
Where did, where's it come from?
And if it's something that came from your youth, for instance, or a situation, we can we, as in consultants can find, say, OK, where's where do you feel that?
15:05
And usually somewhere in the body.
Does that have a color?
Does that have a texture?
Does it you create this into something that you can then work with.
And just like that soldier we're talking about, that's something that part of you you can now communicate with and you can bring it up and out if necessary.
15:24
To see a man who has trauma from his mother growing up that he's now re parenting himself, going through that and he comes out of it and he has new confidence that shows up in his marriage now.
That's such a joy.
15:41
And few women I've talked to that have seen their men grow are so grateful to have that new relationship, that man back in their lives.
And yeah, it's such a joy.
It's fulfilling.
15:57
How important do you think this is for the kids that are growing up with this dad that is rediscovering and rebirthing themselves?
Can you imagine having a dad who's truly engaged?
Someone went that they leave work behind, that they're loving, caring, laughing.
16:16
They're allowing their children to be themselves?
It's not always push, push, push the kids, They can be truly be one with their family and not worry about when I get home I'm going to get in trouble for something just 'cause they're having a hard time.
16:32
It reflects on me.
And so a happy family includes happy parents who can truly be there with their kids.
That that's a generational gift that keeps on giving.
You have trained and experienced so many different modalities with energy work, men's work.
16:53
What made you choose to go into our Sacred Integration Court last year?
Having worked with medicine on my own journey and seeing the power of what can be done when you combine therapeutic modalities with medicine, it was a no brainer.
17:13
Because if you can go ahead and work with them for the two months beforehand, get them set up to go ahead and release something.
It's something that they couldn't do without the medicine because the medicine opens you up.
But if you coach them the first portion of their medicine, you're working through that, whatever it is that you coach them through and then they can enjoy the rest of the medicine and come out and go.
17:39
Wow, I feel so lifted, light available.
The transformation is amazing.
So for me to wanting to be a healer in the 1st place and practicing that be prior to medicine age was just makes a great deal of sense to me to use the tools available and do it in a safe and comfortable way so that people are actually looking forward to it.
18:04
And how important do you think integration is in this work?
Integration is extremely important.
So even if someone comes in to a ceremony and they work through something in that ceremony, afterwards they're like a child loose in the woods and lost.
18:21
If you can work with them, say, OK, this is what happened in ceremony.
This is what you did.
These are the motions that came up.
This is the work that you did.
Here's how it applies to life afterwards.
And this is how you don't go back into it after two weeks of being back in your job, for instance, but instead having it pinned into you.
18:41
And there was such a way that you can always reference it back.
It's that's integration is an absolute, you need it, period.
And I've worked with more than a few men to to do that kind of integration afterwards.
18:57
And it is like watching a color change.
It's that drastic.
And they look forward to next time they can go to medicine because they want more.
I want more.
It's great you're on your journey.
What was your first experience with ayahuasca?
19:13
My first experience wasn't that good.
Worked with a wonderful person to to do the ayahuasca and we'd worked together for prior and afterwards.
But when I got there, even though it's a one-on-one experience, grandmother didn't want me.
She's like, no, not yet.
19:30
Like I just flew across country for this.
I paid a fair amount of money to get it.
I'm working with a wonderful person to go through this and you're saying no.
It's I love that one.
You're not ready, honey Bunny.
Exactly.
Yeah, it wasn't a horrific time, but I just.
19:45
She's just.
Yeah, Nah, not today.
So that's why I worked with mushrooms for a lot otherwise.
But now ayahuasca.
She accepts me and welcomes me in every time.
I think you approached ayahuasca very different when you came here because you did a lot of preparation.
20:04
And for me preparation is the most important part of integration.
You cleansed your body.
We were both doing a very strictly at that and we're still on losing a lot of weight working outside in the heat.
Being in a very conscious community where everyone is on the same path, working with the same medicines.
20:23
How was the second experience for you?
So it was three day ceremony and the first night ayahuasca basically said to me, all right, you're not giving up very easily.
What do you mean?
And this is a visual.
20:38
I'm going to try to explain it.
Picture lines and squares and everything's black and white, but basically like someone's hand drawing these things.
And it was just this, as if I was wearing goggles, VR goggles, and all I could see was that all around me.
And it was like every once in a while something went up in the corners or very quick and it was like messaging.
21:00
And what she was trying to get me to do was to release control.
And I didn't realize just how much I am fully aware at all times.
Energetically, I'm listening.
I'm sensing all different kinds of ways to keep control and protect myself and those around me.
21:17
And it's not protecting myself from myself.
More along the lines of if I was camping in the woods, for instance, I would hear the water, I'd be listening for beers.
I'd be, I'm like, really?
I'm really that stressed at all times.
And she walked me through and I'm not sure how long it took, but at least twenty ways in which I was holding on to control.
21:37
So 1 by 1 I just clicked them off.
She was like peeling the onion of control mechanisms.
Yeah, and I'm very grateful for that 'cause she could have said no.
Yeah, go home, America.
But she worked me and it was very informative and very releasing because in order to work with ayahuasca, I have to let go completely.
22:01
And so I'm like, I knew I had the formula let go, let in, let be and allow.
And I've been working that for a long time with mushrooms.
It's not hard Ayahuasca.
I don't know how long she took me, but a long time.
So the next day, the second day, I didn't have to go through all that.
22:20
I totally just said I'm here, I'm letting go.
I'm fully available.
Hit me with your best shot And and she did, which was absolutely amazing because I totally, absolutely let go.
22:35
And which means I was able to totally let in and just by being in the moment and letting the spirit kind of take over, I was able to allow everything to occur.
Steve mentioned the four movements of surrender and I wanted to dive deeper into them with you because they can be a foundational practice for ceremony and integration.
22:57
Many people, they spend months preparing for an ayahuasca ceremony.
We might change our diets.
You might want to meditate, journal, read books and learn everything that you can about medicine.
But when the ceremony begins, something very unexpected happens to all of us, because none of our preparation can determine the depth of the experience.
23:18
Ayahuasca will not ask us how much we know or if we had a burger or how clean our diet is, even though this is also important and has its own place.
But you will ask us on how willing we are to surrender, how willing you are to surrender.
Then again, we witnessed the same pattern in ourself and everyone who's coming to retreat.
23:39
The people who received the deepest teachings are really those who know the most or did the most.
It's usually those that are available.
Those who stopped fighting what was happening, stopped controlling, stopped negotiating with the experience.
Those who stopped steering the wheel, trying to control where the journey was going, and instead they allow themselves to be guided.
24:03
Surrender is often misunderstood as giving up, but it's not passive.
It is one of the most courageous acts a human being can make.
It is the willingness to release the illusion of control and trust that something wiser than us, something deeper than us, something more than our thinking.
24:21
And it's the willingness to release the illusion of control and trust that there is something wiser, something truer that actually knows the way.
And this practice is built around these four simple movements that you can return to before ceremony, during ceremony, and also through your integration.
24:39
They are not techniques to master or steps to complete an order.
They are simply movements of consciousness that repeat throughout every stage of healing.
So whenever you're noticing yourself resisting, contracting, controlling, analysing, or wishing this moment was different, simply return to these 4 movements again and again.
25:00
And every return is another opportunity to soften.
The first movement is let go.
This was the first thing Ayahuasca asked me to do when I joined my first ceremony 10 years ago and I didn't even know what she meant.
She asked me, Are you ready to let go now?
25:17
And I had no idea what that actually entailed.
And I asked her, is this going to hurt?
Where she just nodded to me and said yes.
And I think I was crying in the moment.
I said, OK, let's do this.
25:35
And I went into my first process with ayahuasca, which was so difficult and so magical, and released things that I didn't even know I had, but that I could feel was released permanently.
When I walked out of that ceremony, so much anger and sadness had been transformed.
25:56
So this is the first invitation of the medicine.
Can you loosen the grip?
Can you let go?
And long before we drink ayahuasca, we learn to hold on for our dare life.
We hold on to certainty because uncertainty might feel dangerous.
We hold on to control because maybe control helped us survive.
26:14
We hold on to identity stories, expectations, beliefs, our coping strategies because at one point in our life they also protected us.
All of these things, they all carry a positive intent, so there's nothing wrong with this.
Every protective strategy was once an intelligent response to a painful experience.
26:34
The problem begins when these very strategies that once kept us safe is preventing us from becoming free from feeling alive, from expanding and expressing ourself.
So during a ceremony, you might also notice yourself trying to control your breathing, your visions, your emotions, your body, or even the medicine itself.
26:53
And you find yourself thinking, am I doing this right?
Why?
Why am I not seeing any visions?
Why hasn't anything happened yet?
When will this end?
Oh, this is an emotion I don't want to feel, can we do something else?
I don't want to see these type of visions, I want to see something happier.
And each of these moments becomes another invitation not to try harder, but simply too soft and to let go.
27:15
Surrender is very rarely this one dramatic moment where you jump from the Cliff.
It is hundreds and thousands of small moments where we gently release the grip.
We gently release and let go.
Oh, it no longer serves us.
Sometimes that means letting go completely of control.
27:33
Sometimes it means letting go of our identity for a moment.
Sometimes it means releasing the belief, sometimes it simply means taking one conscious breath and allowing ourselves to stop resisting what is already here.
And every exhale is that opportunity as well, to just loosen the grip a little bit more.
27:53
The second movement is to let in.
So the moment we release our grip, something beautiful becomes possible.
There is space.
We become available to receive.
Most of us spend our lives trying to protect ourself from pain, and very few of us can realize that the same wall protecting our pain also prevents us from receiving love, connection, guidance, joy, intimacy, and grace or abundance.
28:20
The heart cannot selectively open, and ayahuasca is a heart medicine.
And she doesn't only reveal what needs healing, she also reveals how much love has been waiting patiently behind these walls we build to protect ourselves.
Receiving asks for humility.
It asks us to stop telling life in the entire universe and entire Galaxy what our life should look like right now.
28:44
It asks us to trust that the medicine knows where to begin, where to guide us, where to go.
And the deepest ceremonies are rarely the ones where we planned everything perfectly and it went exactly how we wanted it.
Often they are the ceremonies that we would have never chosen ourself if we went to the ayahuasca store.
29:01
They might be very challenging and intensive, So what initially feels disappointing and those difficult processes often becomes the doorway to our greatest transformation.
Receiving in itself is not about chasing any mystical experiences.
29:18
It's about becoming available for truth wherever that truth arrives as overwhelming love, deep grief, silence, joy, forgiveness, or simply a quiet sense of peace.
The third movement is let be.
Perhaps this might be the most difficult movement of all.
29:37
Our minds are conditioned to fix, to solve, to analyse, to improve, to escape.
Yet healing often ask us to do something very different, to stay open and to be with whatever arises.
If fear arises, if sadness arises, if anger appears, if joy fills your body, if abundance fills your body, or peace to just be with it.
29:59
Everything that appears during the ceremony is asking to be witnessed and felt before it can be transformed.
The moment we begin fighting an emotion, we might strengthen that resistance.
And the moment we allow it to exist without resistance, something can begin to solve.
30:14
And this does not mean that we're becoming passive, it just means we're becoming more present.
And there is an extraordinary wisdom hidden inside emotions we have spent the years trying to avoid and many of those feelings that overwhelm us to day.
We are once emotions we never had the safety to feel.
30:31
What an honour would, a privilege would, a gift that these emotions are coming back up to our consciousness to be released.
And ceremony gives us this opportunity.
This time we are not alone.
This time we are actually held.
30:47
This time we can remain present enough for this emotion to complete its cycle and also complete its teaching that it came here to teach us.
Because healing doesn't happen because something just disappears or gets thrown out.
It happens because our relationship to it changes and the last movement is allow.
31:07
Eventually something will change, and not because we forced it or controlled it or told Ayawaska exactly what we needed and how she should do it.
For us, it changed because we finally stopped standing in the way blocking the river.
And there comes a moment when healing is no longer something we do.
31:24
It becomes something we permit.
We createspace for it.
We allow the medicine to guide us.
We allow our body to remember.
We allow our hearts to soften.
We allow our ancestors to help release what was never ours to carry.
We allow the Great Spirit to move in the ways our mind cannot predict or even comprehend the greatest transformation.
31:46
They rarely happen to effort.
There is no spiritual gin where you can be the most resilient or you read all of the spiritual books and therefore you had the transformation.
This work happens to permission and when people come and say how can I make my ceremony deeper, the better question is this.
32:04
What is preventing me from allowing the depth that is already trying to emerge?
Integration asks a very different question because every difficult conversation becomes another opportunity to allow.
Every trigger we have becomes another opportunity to allow.
Every relationship becomes another opportunity to allow.
32:22
Every ordinary moment becomes an opportunity to trust life instead of controlling it.
And eventually, these 4 movements becomes less of a practice and more a way of being.
So these 4 movements, they do not end when the ceremony ends.
They can become a compass for your living.
32:39
They have 4 directions.
So when conflict might arise, let go.
When love appears, let it in.
When difficult emotions surface, let them be.
Or when life unfolds differently than expected, allow.
And again, these 4 movements returns us to presence.
32:58
They remind us that healing is not created through greater effort, but through deeper surrender.
The ceremony might last one night or three nights, but integration?
That's our embodiment work in this lifetime where every breath becomes an imitation, every movement becomes another opportunity to soften, and every experience becomes another doorway home.
33:20
So whenever you notice yourself being contracted, overwhelmed, disconnected, pause for one moment and ask yourself, what can I let go of?
What is asking to be received?
Can I allow this experience to simply be without trying to change it?
33:36
And what becomes possible if I trust this moment instead of resisting it?
Simply remember the next movement.
Let go, let in, let be, and allow.
Return to them often and over time you might discover they are not just simply movements of surrender, they are movements back to your true nature.
33:57
And now let's dive back in with Steve.
To be able to let go so deeply, you need to really deeply trust the shaman, the facilitators, the space.
What do you think made you capable of letting go completely?
34:15
Having spent a month with the shaman, I got to know him as just a person and he has no ego whatsoever.
He's such a joy to be with.
He's a much little kid as me I am and as hard working as anybody else, seeing what he did the night before with others and how sensing how he was able to guide things for music and his own energies and working the team that was had also had the opportunity to get to know I was being held close.
34:48
And so I'm like, you know what, I'm in a very good space to just go ahead and do this.
And I know I had a friend by the door also making sure no it's going to escape but.
I always take that position just in case we have a runner.
But it was I was in good hands and I knew that this is a safe space.
35:06
And how do you integrate these type of experience for yourself right now?
Much like I do it for others, the methodology is to sit with whatever it was, talk through it, come to understandings, talk with others, and grow into the concept that it was there for a purpose.
35:29
And so it's not too hard to figure out the purpose if you actually just let yourself feel it.
And I think that's the biggest piece.
So we're spending way too much time on our heads.
It's from our hearts and our body, our bodies that we need to come from.
And so I've had practice doing that, but I'm surrounded by good people that are also practice at doing that.
35:54
And what importance do you feel it has to have Shaman to talk to integration with and other facilitators to talk to, integration with, in regards to how you're integrating for yourself but also learning to all that space for others?
So the shaman's very important and I'm not going to discount him in a sense in a way here, but a lot of his work is done that night, having therapists available, consultants available, that people are very much have done integration for a while.
36:24
When you ask the question, whatever it might be, they can talk you through it and it's sharing your own medicine with yourself 'cause they're just a catalyst to bring it out, bring it open and let you discover what it is for you.
It's not they're not there as these leaders in the sense of.
36:42
Mentors.
Gurus.
Although you may see them that way because they're doing amazing work, it's really it's coming from within you.
Just mirrors, yeah.
What was the reason that made you decide to go on this path and become different than your dad or your mom?
37:00
At around 17 years old, my dad and I were watching TV one night.
He was on the couch, I was laying on the floor, and the TV program was about how children of my age and that time where there's a high rate of suicide.
37:16
And they described why this is happening at the end of the program, my dad in his most empathetic way.
So you've hit that bill.
Why haven't you done so?
And it took a moment and it rolled over.
And I'm sure I was very sarcastic, my response, But I said because I want to be a dad.
37:36
I want to be a good dad.
And having a family was so incredibly important to me because growing up, I didn't have a family per SE.
And two houses, 2 broken families.
And my mom did her best, my dad did his best, but they had their own woundings.
37:57
They just didn't.
They didn't do their work.
And so I wanted at that moment to be the best that I could be.
And that's really where a lot of this comes from is my wanting to be the best me and through me for others, especially my children.
38:15
That has been one of my greatest inspirations as well.
When I was guy in one ceremony showed me my future daughter and told me you're not doing all of this healing just so you can have a good life.
You're doing it for her because she has already chosen you.
To see that these kids, they choose us and to be able to do this work that we're not repeating this generational curses and trauma and patterns.
38:39
For me, I feel it's the greatest blessing and I'm so proud of you and so honoured to be in your space and to share this pause with you because I see how much work that you're doing for yourself so that you can give it to your kids.
Generational trauma, I want to end it here and I want them to have the best life they can possibly have, which I was not a perfect parent.
39:03
So they have some trauma of their own.
But as I said to each and every one of them, when you reach the point where you want to work through this, I will sit down with you with a therapist and I will take full responsibility for whatever it is and share with you why it occurred.
39:21
From my perspective, that doesn't forgive what occurred, but it gives you perspective.
And it's up to you to forgive because I've learned to forgive myself.
But as someone going into the spiritual world in the sense of doing a stereo therapy, they need to learn to forgive not just those that be that caused the issue, but themselves for allowing it to occur in a sense of allowing this pain to to be there.
39:49
And that's where the real healing is.
It's taking it from inside.
In my first medicine journey with a mentor, I did a Harrow's dose of mushrooms.
And one of the things that she taught me was to give back to the parents all those things that were not yours in the 1st place.
40:09
And they were.
The list was pretty long.
And it was their really their woundings, their life, what was going on with them.
And so my mother, I understand I'm deep at this point.
My mother happily said, you know, you're right.
40:24
That was mine and you should never have received that.
That's not yours to hold.
And I gave them back.
My father, he pushed back hard saying I'm like, so I started throwing at him.
But the whole point was to release these things that were never mine in the 1st place and that was so freeing.
40:42
It's a simple thing to do, but it's hard to get there.
But it's such a beautiful exercise to write down all of things that are coming from the mother line or the father line.
Most people are not aware of it or aware that they have a choice.
And most people, when they're really honest with themselves and they're doing medicine work.
40:59
And we asked them, how much of what you're carrying right now is yours?
What is shocking to hear is that most people, when they're really honest and attuned to their spirit, they will say 3 percent, 5%, not 90, not 100.
And what I find so fascinating about you, Steve, is that when you're mentioning your kids and saying, I will join you in therapy, I will take responsibility for my part.
41:28
That is what I feel ends this generational trauma with you, with us, because you're the first parent that is taking responsibility.
And one of the greatest lessons that we have from the shamans that are doing this work is that they will always point us back to responsibility with the responsibility that responsibility.
41:50
And you already have embodied that, the responsibility as a parent, the responsibility as a human being for the people around you.
And for myself, it's, it's it took a lot of work to get there.
And I don't blame my parents for not taking responsibility because I didn't know better.
42:09
So I had the opportunity.
I took the opportunity to learn and it ends here.
It seems to awaken a lot of emotions within you as well when you're sure about it.
Anytime we talk about my kids and I know that it caused them some amount of trauma because I know I repeated some of the old wounds if I knew them.
42:29
I know now when I was younger, I they'd be much better off, but I'm always, I always tear up when I talk about my kids because I love them dearly and I want the best for them.
And at their ages right now, they probably think I'm loony for doing the work I'm doing.
42:46
And but at some point they're going to come around.
And in the meantime, I just continued doing my work.
And the interesting thing about generational trauma, if you actually resolve the generational trauma within you, it affects your lineage.
43:03
So it's the one of the really cool things about spirituality is the work you do is not just for yourself.
But ayahuasca, a lot of the work is generational.
It goes into the bone, it goes into all of our ancestors.
Many will see their ancestors coming into the room to support them.
43:21
I remember 1 release, there was like hundreds of ancestors holding around me while I was purging up generational material.
So it's like therapy for the entire lineage every single time you drink that kind.
When it comes to your own generational healing, what do you feel you're ready to release over these next months?
43:39
We talked about abandonment and self love.
I was sitting with a self love portion a couple days ago and it came to me that this is actually generational.
There are many people before me that didn't have the self love and OK, whatever this switch is that I'm trying to find, still, whenever I do find it, there's going to be a whole lot of people out there, spirits that are going to be like, yeah.
44:07
And so that's why opening up and allowing is so incredibly important, because I don't know what it is.
You don't.
I'm like if I could, if I knew what it was, I could address it, but I can't.
I know what the problem is, I don't know what the solution is.
But I love that with.
44:22
Medicine is that we can come in and be like, OK, I had this part of my entire life.
I keep creating this suffering for myself.
I tried all the therapy, but I can't figure it out.
And then we have a real teacher.
If we stay consistent with ayahuasca or with a master plan diet, or with a guide, we can actually go in and resolve it.
44:41
One thing ayahuasca has taught me in plant medicines general is that I'm not alone.
If you think it from a spirit perspective, everything around us that's alive has spirit.
Some things that are we even argue would be alive still have spirit, which means also I have spirit and that there are spirits guides who actually want me to do well.
45:03
So if I just in the Christian religion and raise it up to God and let it go, I love that concept of just raise it up and let it go and see what comes in.
And at some point this summer, I guarantee that I'm going to get some sort of update that says, oh, this is what you're looking for and this is how we're going to resolve this.
45:26
I also love when we're on this journey and we don't know how to solve certain elements of our healing because they might be ancestral, There might be aspects of them that we don't understand from our culture because it's spiritual at a very deep level.
But we get to outsource that how to the divine, to the Great Spirit, even to ayahuasca.
45:46
We have great trust and connection to her.
And then we can sit with the why we're doing this.
Because I want to be a good dad, because I want to have a good life, because I want to live an abundant life, a healthy life, a happy life, to be a good brother, sister, partner.
Or we can focus on the what the intention, what I want to see in my life, what I want to experience in my life, what I want to feel day-to-day.
46:10
What is it that you want to see in your life at the end of this journey?
Your goal is to stay here for four months and you're working with all these different plan teachers in your Master Plan theatre.
What is it that you want to see in your life and experience in your life when you're complete with this journey?
My own personal desire is to be my best me so I can be there for others.
46:32
Only by being my best me can I truly be there at a great extent that goes with energy healing, that goes with the changes that are happening in our world to to be that entity that can help move people through their struggles, whether there be emotional, spiritual or physical, whatever.
46:52
That's all energy.
And So what I'm asking my guides this summer is to enable me, in whatever may way makes sense, to be my best me, and to show me how I can use my skills and abilities to enable us as a world, to raise it up and to truly be our best selves in general.
47:16
Living at this retreat center, we're living together with three straight guys and two gay guys and chickens and goats and a parrot, Tirumiti and Tikka or dog.
And I witness you again and again at retreats, but also with the guys that live here that probably did not have a very good father, that you enter into the role as the spiritual dad.
47:39
And I've seen many of the guys who live here really crow feeling seen, feeling supported. 1 is a Carpenter and used three months making a not very nice looking sofa.
And after you, the spiritual dad, enter the shed, he's making something that he's probably the most proud of in this entire life.
47:59
Beautiful table after someone to show them how to use the tools but also show them how to see the tools they have on the inside.
How did you become this spiritual dad?
I love to be a mentor my whole business life, even before then it was if I can help someone lift themselves up, it helps the the greater.
48:22
So as as a director of engineering, for instance, with 37 people reporting to me, my goal was always to enable them to do their best work, which only takes one person to show some loving kindness and how to use the tools to make a difference.
48:41
So that's a gentle touch.
Didn't take me much, but just being there, that's spiritual Dad.
The best parent is the parents that they're engaged.
Yeah.
And a lot of kids and a lot of us who are on this ayahuasca journey, we didn't grow up with parents that are doing ayahuasca, that are spiritual.
48:59
So this entire soul aspect, this spirit aspect, this inner awakening and seeking that we have has never been acknowledged, supported, celebrated.
And I do think a lot of people need an elder or a spiritual dad or a spiritual mom to hold space for that awakening and to also to know and understand and guide them in what they're going through.
49:21
And that's part of the reason I'm on this path.
It's seems intuitive to me to be in this environment and to grow into being.
This I'll call elder, see the Gray hair of being able to be there and say, why don't we try something different?
49:39
Why don't we see something different?
Why don't we approach it in a different way?
Oh, and by the way, while you're doing this work, let's just give our whole heart into it.
And that's the encouragement every child needs, no matter how old we are.
49:55
Thank you so much, Steve, for joining us and for sharing your courage and your heart and your energy with us that are on this ayahuasca integration journey.
Thank you very much.
It's a pleasure to be here.
Let's meet again in three months and see where you landed with all of this beautiful work.
50:13
So that's going to happen in three months.
It's.
Like a spiritual Disneyland.
Here we go.
Thank you.
My pleasure.
That is all I had for you this week, my friend.
And if you would like to learn more about the Sacred Integration Facilitator training that Steve joined last year, applications are now open for our next cohort and you can find all the details in the episode description and in the show notes below.
50:35
This is a six month journey designed for those who feel called to support others through their own transformation with plant medicines.
We cover what we call the seven piece of Sacred Integration and Facilitation, from the practical tools, frameworks and the Ethics of Facilitation to the deep inner work required to hold space with integrity.
50:55
And we also explore how to build a sacred service, a real platform, community and a business so that this work can support your life while you are serving others.
Every second week we also host free integration circles and breath work sessions, and there are more dedicated circles being added throughout the year.
51:12
If you're looking for one-on-one support after an ayahuasca experience, visit ayahuascaintegration.org and you will find a growing network of psychologists, psychotherapists, integration coaches, and experienced facilitators who specialized in integration with ayahuasca.
51:28
You can create a free membership, join our online community, and connect with others that are walking the same path.
The platform is still evolving, so thank you for your patience as we continue to build it.
Next week brings the final episode of this season, episode 33.
51:43
I'll be sharing the most important lessons ayahuasca has taught me over the past 10 years, along with the core principles of integration that has become the foundation of my work and the heart of what I teach my students and fellow facilitators.
If this podcast today was meaningful to you, I'd be so deeply grateful if you left the review or share this episode with someone who might need it.
52:05
Thank you for walking the spot with me.
Until next week.
So much love aha.
